Hello, I'm Ginger, clean addict in NA. I have almost five years clean. I have only been sponsoring other people for a little over a year. Nobody ever talks about how hard it is to BE the sponsor! People complain or praise various aspects of USING a sponsor - what about BEING one?
I have sponsored maybe ten women now - I'd say half of them went back out. Two came back and have started over. My sponsor tells me to give them assignments, like read "Who is and Addict" and let's talk about it. They never seem to do any of these assignments though!
I've worked step one in the workbook with three of them. Two of those went back out, one is now on step 2. I want to be the kind of sponsor who works steps with sponsees, not the "buddy" kind of sponsor who okee-dokes their bad choices.
Anyway, that's where I'm at today. Right now I have about four sponsees who are actually calling me regularly. I love 'em.
I have sponsored maybe ten women now - I'd say half of them went back out. Two came back and have started over. My sponsor tells me to give them assignments, like read "Who is and Addict" and let's talk about it. They never seem to do any of these assignments though!
I've worked step one in the workbook with three of them. Two of those went back out, one is now on step 2. I want to be the kind of sponsor who works steps with sponsees, not the "buddy" kind of sponsor who okee-dokes their bad choices.
Anyway, that's where I'm at today. Right now I have about four sponsees who are actually calling me regularly. I love 'em.
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Missouri
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Re: Sponsorship
Thu, May 5, 2005 - 9:49 AMGinger, you said a mouthfull, sister! Yup, being a sponsor sure has its ups and downs at times. I've always tried to be the type of sponsor that I so desperately needed way back when. I don't co-sign anyone's bullshit. I don't let anyone try to mistake kindness for weakness. I get my sponsees active in service work- and work right alongside them until they're on auto-pilot. I might let them piss and moan just long enough to get it out of their system, but then the pity party is redirected towards problem solving, acceptance, or whatever else the situation(s) call for. I assign them simple tasks like calling another addict who the sponsee doesn't know will confirm that the call was/wasn't made.
Does some of this sound sneaky? Hell yeah. But consider just how many times we tried to get over on others during our active addiction, and often for a period when first geting clean. Nobody ever said that being a sponsor means one has to be predictable in methodology. Like we weren't given to subterfuge when we were out there using? **LMAO**
Some of the biggest aspects of being a sponsor that do require absolute consistency are honesty, open-mindedness & willingness (duh). Sponsors must also remember that what keeps one addict clean might not work for another. Sometimes sponsors must go to unusual lengths to find and implement effective strategies.
One of the biggest traps inexperienced sponsors tend to fall into is internalizing it when a sponsee relapses. It is not uncommon for the sponsor to second guess their readiness and capability for this important task. The "what ifs," "yeah, buts," and self-blame are moot. Bottom line is that sometimes the only thing standing between an addict and picking up is their HP.
Off my soapbox for now. Looking forward to hear others' ES&H.
{{{hugs}}},
Chris a/k/a fugi -
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Re: Sponsorship
Sun, May 15, 2005 - 12:09 PMhi sister chris and ginger, ya know i only have 10 months cont. this time, and many years off and on since this wasnt my first rodeo. and i am a counselor. but i havent sponored anyone. in a weird way, i work w/ people every day through their step internal processess. like free therapy. they have their sponsors, but i am their adviros. why me? i can answer that only on the gut level. i have been called to do that since i was a child. prehaps that's why i am reluctant to take on commitments in the program because i do so much counseling. or prehaps it's a cop out. i dont know. i really dont "qualify" as a sponsor in the technical sense yet if never fails i am right there offering the hard core advise, that you may not even want to tell your sponsor since it may have little to do with sobriety, tho it has evereything to to do with it. paradox? yes. but, therein lis the quandry. most sponsors can do what they do best, keep their sponsees sober by working the model. a good sponsor would not leave those stomping grounds into the realms of therapy, tho many do. what do you guys think. am i coping out. am i avoiding commitments? actually no one has even approached me, and i think it's because i dont have enoughclean time. -
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Re: Sponsorship
Wed, May 18, 2005 - 8:28 PMArgh!!! I got called away from my comp for a while in mid-post. Came back and hit a wrong key... ARGH!!! I've finally got some downtime tomorrow and will try again then. This worn out addict needs her blankie & feather pillow more than anything else right now... -
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Re: Sponsorship
Thu, June 16, 2005 - 12:36 PMHello - thanks for the responses Fugitive and Gypsydaze. Since I last wrote, the sponsee I had who was the most troubling to me let me go as her sponsor. After about three weeks of working together, and her calling me every day but not doing anything that I suggested, she relapsed. She was going to meetings regularly, and calling me every day -but this girl has been in and out for a year, like clockwork. She never gets more than 90 days clean. One of her issues is a sick romantic relationship that is verbally abusive and crazy and chaotic. She has kids & moved in with her parents to get away from him, but keeps seeing him, especially since she needs rides (doesn't drive). The guy, interestingly, came into NA and doesn't use. So he isn't the source of drugs for her, and when she went back out it was not with him, however she's constantly complaining about him.
Anyway, she relapsed and came back and complained and whined and dramatized, but didn't want to talk about what led to her relapse. She was very defensive and kept pointing out repeatedly how hard she is trying. Then she mentioned that she was getting ready to go somewhere with this guy. Keep in mind she never asks any questions or for any direction or guidance. Finally I asked her why she would go out with him if she feels she needs distance from that relationship. She got defensive and said that she HAD been staying away from him & was confused. I called her on her lie, and reminded her that the last time I talked to her they were together. She said "I'm getting really angry, I'm hanging up now." A few days later she called to tell me she was going back to her old sponsor. Hey, at least she called to tell me, I guess.
I talked it over with my sponsor. I'm lucky she let me go, because if she hadn't I would have had to let her go. I'm one of those people who feels if a sponsee keeps relapsing, their sponsor might not be the best person for them to work with. I also believe that to receive help, a person has to: want it, ask for it, and need it.
NA has a sponsorship book now which I've been reading a lot. It talks about sharing our experience, we don't give advice. That's more for counsellors or therapists, as Gypsy alluded to. On thing I took issue with in Gypsy's comments - she said: "most sponsors can do what they do best, keep their sponsees sober by working the model." I disagree - we do not "keep" people sober. That's THEIR job. We can guide them along, but they do the work.
And that's just it, the majority of people asking me to sponsor them don't do any work. They are comfortable in their old ways. They haven't gotten desperate enough to change. I really don't want to waste my time with people like that. For now, I am not taking on any more sponsees.
I liked what you said, Fugitive, about showing them how to do service. I do a lot of service myself and it'd be easy to take them along.
I'm not sure what else to try. I really appreciate the input from both of you and would welcome more. -
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Re: Sponsorship
Fri, June 17, 2005 - 8:47 PMOne aspect of the 12-step mindset that gets my panties in a wad is that sponsorship, rather, BEING a sponsor, is the be-all and end-all of service in recovery. Let's face it- some folks just shouldn't accept, or be shoved into, what may become a lose-lose situation. Geez- I've witnessed hundreds of these nightmares since '89. The stories I could tell- no names mentioned, of course! ;oD
Gypsy, I respect that after counseling clients all day you'd understandably want, no... need... to be just another addict in the rooms. This is not being selfish. This is being self-caring. None of us were issued leotards and capes, ya know? (but Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth sure would come in handy!!! **LMAO**)
Bottom line is that none of us can give what's not readily available. And it's potentially dangerous for us to try to give when our own recovery "bank accounts" are increasingly tapped. Those who attempt to do too much of ANY demanding service work while spiritually in the "red zone" is putting themselves (and possibly others) in jeopardy, big time.
Ginger, your sponsor was correct in telling you to count your blessings on being relieved of that particular sponsee. I don't know how long you had been trying to work with that girl, but it sounds like she's still got a lot more insanity to experience. Just pray that she survives her ordeal. If it is her HP's will, maybe in the future she'll be a daily member of the winning team. But, ladies, I am extremely grateful that we three are in it to win it just for today.
Don't know how much I'll be online the next several days. My ever-so-charming (NOT!!!) mother-in-law darkens the doorstep of Casa del fugi on Monday. Until then it's Martha Stewart mode and fighting hard to practice principles before HER personality...
{{{hugs}}},
Chris a/k/a fugi -
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Re: Sponsorship
Sat, June 18, 2005 - 3:40 AMI love the new sponsorship book my sponsor has me reading it word for word and underlining the stuff that hits me the most...each time I read NA'S LITERATURE I GET SOMETHING ELSE OUT OF IT! I love working on the world literature committee and taking an active part in the writing of our new literature.... i got to participate in the new sponsorship book(the blue one that some people see clouds and spiritual awakenings and others see lines of cocaine!!!, depends where u are at in ur recovery...) Progess not perfection!!!while i was in El Paso Texas(2002-2004) we worked on that book now we are working on personal stories I'm working with my sponsor we are sending them all in together.....anyone can write one ....500 words....naws.org has guidelines and ideas..... most of my sponsees end up going out unwilling to work steps or incaple of getting brutally honest.....I have learned not to take it personally....people are in our lives for a season and a reason .....lots of lessons to be learned.... it is our reponsibility to carry the messsage not the addict or the mess! love and light lilaclady
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Re: Sponsorship
Tue, June 21, 2005 - 10:46 PMhi guys-how nice to see some women w/ words of wisdom and clarity back writing. i know chris you have had some personal stuff and hope all is well given the inlaw duty calls.
ginger, i dont know you but i know you are astute and take your sobriety thoughfully and sincerely. i reread my post you took issue with me on and i admit i probably wasnt clear on exactly what i meant about how some sponsors approach the challenge of the model. the best sponsors, including mine, are the ones that leave everything but sobriety to the people whose expertise lies in the areas that plague us in recovery.
i know that sounds murky. i.e mental health, marriage counseling, parenting. my sponsor deals w/ issues that crop up in sobriety and she has enough experience and clean time to know when she is out of her league when it comes down to issues that involve dual diagnosis, psych meds and mental health. she is the the first to suggest i take them to my therapist who ido most of my step work with. no, she doesnt keep me sober, i keep me sober, the fellowship keeps me sober, the mtgs, the readings, it all keeps me sober. but in a way, her dedication, her character, her strength, her stories, i chose her for a reason, because i new she would help me thru the first few months when i needed the support. but most of that was on me. i sought her out and she was there. our personalities meshed.
but i am also an indie, once i set out to do something i dont need alot of hand holding and emotional support. i havent slipped in almost a year. why? cause i have done every damn thing i was told to do, and i was on a short loeash with a studded choke chain. u either hang yourself or surrender. i learned to heel. and, inthe process, enjoyed the walk. learned some tricks. earned some medals. quit biting, tamed down. (off on metaphor lane here).
so, here i am one year later, new friends, family trust, new car, writing again, working some, earning respect, but struggling, struggling w/ demons of the maybe i can use just once syndrome, starting to dream of dope, relapsing friends all around looking to me , why/ cause i was a counselor.
so, yea i have to set the dreaded boundary word. i am on the edge also, like they think they are the only ones over the edge? i have had to walk away from these people. my problem has been too much service in the past. i need to take care of me i am still to vulnerable. not necessarily using, but the thinking, the co-dep of relationships that will inevitably take me back down. maybe not now, maybe not ever, but i will never be happy in relationships if i dont get a grip on this helping others at the expense of self. i'm all for service. but i am so good at looking like i have it all together i fool even me. the next thing ya know the resentments start. and we all know where that goes.
me be a sponsor? again, i wouldnt mind at all, but i dont have the clean time except in dual diagnosis, and there people are constantly relapsing for the very issues that ginger was talking about. we can only do so much. just cause i was a counselor w/ years of experience doesnt give the fellowship members the right to use that on me for advise or consider it a badge of armor or immunity from the usual horrors of addiction. i'm just one more brick in the wall with a higher relapse rate thanthe general population. and it's not like it's common knowledge, it's just after a year of being around the same people in a small town you used to get high in, these folks know exactly who you are.
anyway, just venting. sorry, needed to catch up. dropped out of one tribe. for being honest. aint that a shame. so, its nice to be in one where i can be. love you guys.............p -
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Re: Sponsorship
Mon, July 25, 2005 - 11:30 AMLilac & Gypsy - thanks for your posts. I just read them both. Lilac, you said: "most of my sponsees end up going out unwilling to work steps or incaple of getting brutally honest.....I have learned not to take it personally....people are in our lives for a season and a reason." I have been sponsoring for almost, not quite, two years of my five years clean. I'm not there yet, I am still taking some things personally! Today, a girl I sponsored for several months called and left me a voice mail saying she is getting a new sponsor. She said she was sorry to leave it in a voice mail but didn't think she'd have the courage to tell me. Part of me feels like just as we were getting closer and getting ready to go over her first step she decided to bolt. She is only 18 and really flighty. Just got a year clean and is on tons of psych meds. She said she is getting a sponsor who has a dual diagnosis so they can understand her better.
A little over a year ago I had some anxiety and obsession that was becoming almost debilitating and I decided to try therapy. I told my sponsor about it. The therapist pronounced me a textbook case of OCD and recommended I see a psychiatrist and get on meds. She suggested this multiple times. I never did it and I made it through that time in my life. I am not interested in contributing to the gigantic pharmaceutical corporations' bottom line. There is a lot of controversy over psych meds and they certainly aren't proven to work on everyone. Bottom line, I don't want to be dependent on a drug again and no matter what you might think, many of those meds are very very hard to wean off. It's just not worth it to me.
My experience is that today psych meds are offered to NEARLY ANYONE WHO WALKS INTO A THERAPIST'S OFFICE. Seriously. When the therapist can't prescribe it they refer you to a friend of theirs who can. I'm NOT claiming to be an expert, I'm just saying the recommendation to take this stuff is much more wide spread than it was ten or fifteen years ago. I'm glad I didn't jump onto that bandwagon and glad I used the program and my tools to help me through that time.
My grand sponsor is kind of like the NA Queen in this area. She came from another area three years ago, has twenty years clean, and is the grand or great grand sponsor of just about everyone around here. Recently I heard that she doesn't sponsor people on psych meds. She is not on psych meds and doesn't want to meddle in that area. I thought - GREAT! This is what I should do, since I'm not on medication. Guess what - I would have had to fire all three of my sponsees - they are all on it. Now that the young girl did that for me, I am down to two sponsees.
I don't know. I felt like I was just reaching this girl a little bit. Maybe we can still be friends if she wants. Her psych meds are a huge part of the drama she creates. A month or so ago she went off them and ended up freaking out and called a psych ward and checked herself in. She is in constant turmoil over it. Maybe an addict who is on psych meds can help her better than I did - but Gypsy seemed to be saying that she doesn't believe in overstepping the boundaries of working steps in the sponsor - sponsee relationship. I don't know.
I feel kind of bad. I started this forum complaining about a girl who was really wacko dropping me as her sponsor. She is still out there and letting people in the program know it - checking into hospitals then going back to the crack house. That's two in a row who let me go. And the two I'm still sponsoring aren't really doing anything... One is staying clean but still shoplifting (at age 43) and the other has one foot in N.A. and the other in family therapy and having her family take care of her everytime she falls.
What this all boils down to is - maybe I shouldn't sponsor. I'm going to talk to my sponsor about this. But I'm aware that some addicts do not sponsor by choice. They choose not to serve that way. Recently I started a new meeting that I chaired for the first three months, recruited new home group members, made flyers - the whole bit. I am the chairperson of the Area Newsletter committee and it's a lot of work. Some other committee is always asking me to make their logo or flyer. Maybe it's best that I serve in other ways than being a sponsor.
This brings me to identify with Gypsy's predicament of "helping others to the point of destroying self." I'm not exactly doing that today, but I do get that same resentment when I feel like I'm giving and giving to NA and not getting a whole lot out of it! Sometimes I feel like, "Poor me, who is helping me." There is NOBODY in the program who knows what's going on with me except my sponsor and my husband - luckily I have this forum to write to. I know lots and lots of people in NA and I'm constantly reaching out, but people just want ME to LISTEN to them. I don't encounter people who want to know how I'm doing. It seems like most of the other addicts are falling apart, caught up in their own lives, or they are women who don't like other women - we have a LOT of those here.
Like I say, I'm going to talk with my sponsor about this. I've asked her who she talks to besides her sponsor, and she has a woman at work she can talk to who practices the same religion as her so they really see eye to eye. But even my sponsor doesn't have a whole bunch in her inner circle - she's married to an addict and has a sponsor, but other than that I think she relies on friends outside of NA. Maybe this is what I need to do.
I know a lady in AA who has several years. She tells me she only goes to show the program works. She said she doesn't get a whole lot out of meetings anymore because her life is pretty good. She said she just goes to give back. Maybe THIS is where I need to be. I still get a lot out of hearing what people have to say and I do love meetings. But as far as finding "someone who believes in me and wants to help me with my recovery" nope. It's always the other way around. Sound bitter?! I know, it's awful. But maybe one of you has a comment or suggestion.............
Fired again!!!
Ginger -
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Re: Sponsorship
Mon, August 1, 2005 - 2:26 PM{{{Ginger}}} First of all, HAPPY 5th BIRTHDAY!!! Love ya, grrrlfriend!
Hon, you covered a boatload of stuff in that last post. I have less than an hour before fetching my precious goofies from daycare. Dang- thwarted by this plane's static, linear concept of time once again! **LMAO**
Seriously, there are some of us (like yours truly) who have consistently demonstrated a valid need to be on psychotropic meds for an indefinite length of... uh-oh... "time." However, I completely agree that the script pads are waaay overused, and often incorrectly.
On the flip side, some recovery newbs do benefit from temporary meds usage, at least long enough to detox and start developing a solid foundation in recovery. It's a truly delicate balance. When it comes to bona fide DDx's, (DDx = Dually Diagnosed) the emphasis gradually shifts from pharmacological to program, assuming a best-case scenario.
Now, when the DDx's addictions include substances which have been scientifically doccumented to significantly (often permanently) alter brain chemistry and functioning, the recovery stakes become magnified. Some of the worst chemical offenders are drugs like LSD, cocaine, PCP, meth... And when that DDx started on their addictions long before completing physical and mental growth, the rate of recidivism increases drastically. Add various external and/or genetic factors like hereditary mental illness, substance abuse, poverty, neglect, abandonment, physical/emotional/sexual abuse, etc... The odds of even marginal recovery success deteriorate exponentially. It's f*cking horrifying, especially to anyone who can't even begin to imagine these realities. It doesn't matter if one is in the professional or recovery arena- doing the best we can for these poor souls is a daunting prospect. Therefore, it's no surprise to hear of sponsors who won't work with DDx's.
It's not for me to judge. However, I am living proof that even the seemingly hopeless can recover despite all odds. Sadly though, many come along who may have never honestly wanted, or believed they were worthy of, this gift. Others who do have often been through so much hell that they can't hang in there long enough for us to love them until they can love themselves.
Anyone here who's sincerely interested to learn more about what it's like to be DDx is invited to visit my other recovery Tribe, "3D Universe"
w3b3d.tribe.net/
Time to scoop da goofies. Love you all!!!
Chris a/k/a fugi
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Re: Sponsorship
Tue, August 23, 2005 - 1:58 PMTo sponsor or not to sponsor that is the question!!??!!its an individual decision like everything else in recovery our sponsors can suggest things its our choice whether or not we follow the suggestions. as far as pysche meds go....we are not doctors....it comes down to if i have a toothache i go to the dentist....legal problems ..... a lawyer and so on and so forth....the 12 steps of narcotics anonymous have helped me solve many problems.... and deal with..... and walk thru.... divorce, homelessness, parenting, illness, death of loved ones and on and on the list goes.....we as addicts can get so caught up in drama and chaos when its a simple program for complicated people....i choose to keep it simple....giving back what was so freely given to me. i do not take if an addic t goes out and uses personally because this disease is cunning, baffling and powerful we are responsible for our own recovery and no one elses sponsorship is the heartbeat of the program....the theraputic value of one addict helping another... nothing like it in the world!I am at a place in my recovery right now where i can accept people where they are at in their process and let them be...love & light lilac --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Sponsorship
Sun, August 7, 2005 - 6:24 PMginger, i would have gotten to you sooner, but i did.. and cyber space ate the damn thiong, and i was at it for two, yes two hours... and that was weeks ago...so lest i lose it again, i'll try and be briefer.
fug dear is correct there is another tribe, the 3D tribe for dually's. and we aren't completley understood. and what i wrote last time is nothing like i am writing this time, so prehaps it's better .
first, an 18 yr. old isn't hearing much of anything anyway so dont beat youself up. she was probably a long shot on sobriety and it was better for her to be with what she knows best a life that had already been full of therapists and shrinks, for better or worse, she's been rewired and you can't do anything about that.
you know NA is full of in and outs so you can't be suprised and the relapse rate. i am in AA because the of the stronger recovery rate. NA's hard line appraoch to meds is in your fellowship, not in your NA book and not in the AA big book. so please consider these are your issues not NA's program principles which do recognize that meds are necessary in certain cases just as AA does.
however, if you aren't comfortable sponsoring the DD's, then you should'nt. it goes w/out saying. the flip[ side is so many NA people are DD's so the newcomer is faced w/ that daunting task of trying to recover w/ psych meds and finding a sponsor who will take him or her. this is where a therapist or the DRA program can help. Dual Recovery Anon. If we could just get newbie thru the first few months stabilized and weaned down, then prehaps the relapse rate would not be so high.
but you got to do what you are comfortable doing. this is not about phamacuetical ripoffs honey. psyctropics have saved many lives, inc. mine. i agree many dr.'s overprescribe, remember we live in a capitalistic society.
congrats on your 5 yrs. of course you will do the right thing. you can be of service in so many other ways if you feel sponorship aint it.
i am so sorry it took me so long to get back.
i am pissed i lost the first one but i better get this off befor i lose it.
love ya dear.... -
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Re: Sponsorship
Wed, August 17, 2005 - 10:42 AMHey there ladies. OK so here's the update. The little 18 year old girl I was sponsoring, I'll call her Kitty. Kitty let me go as her sponsor, as I mentioned in my very first post here. She is on lithium and all kinds of other meds and wanted a sponsor who had experience with taking medication. It was for the best because she didn't take ANY direction and rarely even listened.
Well she was at the meeting where I celebrated my five years and I gave her a hug and was nice to her. She was with a much older man, a newcomer, and they were all over one another in the meeting. Many members of my sponsorship tree were there and I shared my story at the meeting, that's how we do home group members' anniversaries.
A week later Kitty leaves me a voice mail saying she's having a lot of trouble with her new sponsor and she wants to come back to me as her sponsor. Since she left this in a voice mail, I had time to think about it. I talked to my sponsor, who suggested I say no and don't encourage this bouncing around. Tell her she picked this woman for a reason and give it a chance and try and work with her. My sponsor suggested I tell Kitty if it doesn't get any better in 30 days call me again and we'll talk.
Kitty showed up at my home group and fully expected me to be her sponsor again. I had to say I can't do that, and my suggestion is not to jump from relationship to relationship. She started talking very fast and complaining about this new sponsor and I never got another word in edgewise. I didn't get to say she could get back with me in 30 days or any of that. Kitty doesn't listen, she just talks.
Anyway - I'm glad it went this way. I still sponsor two women, both are on meds. I have to say I think there are just as many people in NA on meds who are not on meds around here. I don't think this "dual diagnosis" is in any way unique anymore. I would be one of them; last year I did four months of therapy and the lady suggested I go to a psychiatrist friend of hers and get on meds about five times. I'm not up for that; things are a lot better for me now and I'm really glad I didn't do it. I'm all for getting into the solution by using the tools.
What it says in the new Sponsorship book put out by NA is that as sponsors we do not, quote, "prescribe or discourage medication." I really don't like that language; it doesn't say anything about "encouraging" the taking of medication - as if it's OK for sponsors to do that. Of course we can't prescribe it, that's a given. Do we encourage it? They conveniently left that untouched.
A woman just joined my home group last night who has bad knees and is on a constant dose of morphine - it's on a patch on her arm. She has been coming around for years and has admitted that her doctor told her she will have to detox from the pain medication she's been PRESCRIBED to be on every day. I had her over to my house with some other women about 8 months ago and she was on it then too. She LOOKS loaded, sounds loaded, walks and talks LOADED. Everything that you think about opiates, the eyes closing, the slurring of speech - she does all this. Her husband is an enabler who comes to meetings with her and takes care of her. She just joined my home group last night and I can hardly stand to be around her.
Where do we draw the line? In NA we have a booklet called IN Times of Illness. Personally, I think the goal for any addict or alcoholic would be to eventually get off any pain medication, methadone, even psychotropic drugs are supposed to be used for a period of time, not forever. My father in law has been on Prozac for TEN years straight, and I heard that the drug is not meant to be used for that long. I don't know - I'm no expert. I know I bought Xanax & Valium from the dope man like any other drug and these are prescribed for mental problems all the time. I can't go there, that's addiction for me.
I do appreciate the comments and feedback here - I'm not trying to be in any way insensitive. As I say both my current sponsees are on meds and we don't discuss it at all, it only came up with Kitty. I think if we truly have one another's back it's fair to say at least people should be honest with their doctor and probably another recovering addict about what they are taking. Is that true, do you think?
Anyway, thanks again ladies and write when you have a chance. Just don't lose the whole thing Gypsy!!! Ha, ha. Save your work in Word or something.
XOXOXOOXOXOXOX
Ginger
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Re: Sponsorship
Wed, August 17, 2005 - 12:53 PMi have been waiting for you ginger dear!!!
and am i suprised at your response. first of all i had no idea your sponsees were on narcotics and long term benzos.
IMO i wouldn't want an addicted indivdual in NA loaded and slurring. it is a trigger and disturbing to those trying to recover. clearly until she is stabilized she belongs in a pain management program or some other support group. why NA? it just doesn't make sense? the principles conflict.
the difference is MENTAL DISORDERS. psyciatric disorders, no-fault illnesses. periodically if a tooth needs extracted or an operation requires medication and short term narcotics are required, it seems these days both AA and NA are accepting of these meds, given under strict physcian dispension and sponsor knowledge.
to address the benzos for anxiety disorders, that's touchy, they have helped many people but are used w/ other meds in cocktails in dual disorders. ginger, if a sponsee presents w/ just a script for valuim and no other treatment plan, i would be skeptic as to their commitment and dedication to sobriety.
so, i agree very much to all your concerns on those levels of meds and sobriety.
on the other hand, i think i am getting a clearer picturer of what you are seeing in your program. i misunderstood and was coming from the true dually diagnosed client, uh that would be me. if ididnt have my "cocktail" of meds and AA, shrink, weekly therapy, sponsor, you guys, the whole model i would be dead, in jail or back at the jitter joint.
i suppose it's difficult to tell the difference between the bullshitters who'd snort a prozac to get a jolt and those of us who'd be poster children for any pharmecutical if it would keep us from committing suicide, relapsing over and over, cutting on ourselves, etc. See, we do exisit, and it isn't always because we are addicts.
i think that's why chris said check out 3D universe tribe. some of us are truely called 5150's (code call involuntary hold). we have to live with that stigma. and addiction to alcohol and drugs.
but there is no doubt there are those who will stop at nothing to get high. nutmeg, wormwood, tylenol, robitussin, ephedra, and those are legal.
i am sorry i misunderstood the types of drugs your sponsees were "abusing" ginger. and yes i stick everythin in word these days. i plan on writing the great american book on insanity trying to stay sane.
good to hear back. love ya. -
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Re: Sponsorship
Fri, August 19, 2005 - 11:01 AMHi there! I don't know how my email MISCOMMUNICATED - I don't sponsor anyone currently on narcotics. I sponsor two people - I'll call them: Cindy and Angie. Cindy, age 40, takes medication to help her sleep at night and I can't remember the name of it. I think she might take other meds also but I don't know what. Angie, age 28, takes Lithium and a bunch of other stuff and said she's been diagnosed as bi-polar.
The woman who joined my home group, Lonny, has been coming around for years and had a BONE infection in her knee then had both knees operated on, and this was all over a period of years, and so she's been on pain meds all this time. She's the one who comes to meetings loaded - stumbling and slurring... but considers herself "clean" because it's PRESCRIBED medication. She has that morphine patch. I would never sponsor Lonny or anyone using opiates to such a great degree, if I was aware of it. With her, you can't help but be aware of it.
One point I kind of want to re-iterate is that people in NA, at least- I'm not sure about AA - are frequently on psychiatric medication. I think it's offered to more people than not, who go for therapy these days. As I mentioned it was offered to me and I turned it down. So this idea of being "dually diagnosed" is very common and not unique to a handful of individuals. However, unlike AA, NA has a lot of stuff in the literature about "one disease." Our first step says we are powerless over the addiction, not just the substance of alcohol. I have attended AA many times and it's been my experience that most people in AA also consider staying clean from all drugs as part of their program. So I'm not saying people in AA use or anything like that. But NA focuses on the disease of having an addictive type personality overall, as opposed to being addicted to alcohol.
Also, in attending AA I have seen someone show up to a meeting drunk. It happens. Probably not as often in AA, as you said; the recovery rate in AA is stronger than in NA. What I like about NA is the almost "holistic" approach for lack of a better word, treating the disease all the way around as the disease of addiction. When people piece and part it out into sections - this part of me is an addict, this part is alcholic, this part is an overeater, I have a little bit of bi-polar here, some OCD there - and I'm getting separate treatment for each thing ---- oooh, I don't know about that - it would not work for me that way.
The only time prescription meds have come up for me as a sponsor, other than my former sponsee Kitty dropping me as her sponsor... Is one time Cindy came to me - and shared in a meeting about - getting really upset one night and taking more than the prescribed dosage of her nighttime sleeping medication. She took an extra pill. We went over it and I told her I saw it as a red flag, not a RELAPSE. I talked it over with my sponsor as well for feedback. Since Cindy was sharing it at meetings and telling anyone who would listen, as she often does, a lot of people in the fellowhship were chiming in and some felt she had relapsed. Cindy has relapsed a few times and it was always on crack. I had a hard time considering her extra pill one night a relapse. So we took it as a serious red flag and moved on. She's been doing well since then and that was about six months ago. I would be interested to know your thoughts on this. What do you think? How do we know the difference? Do you sponsor people on medication?
I saw in your email that psychiatric meds have saved you from suicide, and I can really appreciate that. I know a guy who hears voices when he doesn't take his medication, he becomes very destructive. Yet, there have been news reports that studies on SSRI's in particular conflict. I believe the FDA has even talked about forcing warning labels on giving psychotropic drugs to teenagers because suicide may be a result of taking them for young people. It doesn't seem like there is a definitive answer. I do know that for many years I messed around with my own brain chemistry because I didn't like how I felt with nothing. To open that door for me would be a Pandora's box. I like taking drugs too much, it would snowball. I do consider myself "mentally ill" - I have been told by an expensive, educated shrink that I am a "textbook case" of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and that drugs would help me. I prefer not to treat it that way.
The way I sort of draw the line as far as who I sponsor or hang out with - if someone is obviously loaded then I wouldn't feel comfortable hanging out, of course. But if someone is taking drugs regularly that are something a company would test for in a stringent drug test - then that's too much like using in my opinion. Like benzos - as you mentioned. Some corporations screen for benzos in a basic employee drug test and if you're positive you have to show a script. Why? Because they are commonly addictive and can cause someone's life to be unmanageable if they get addicted to them. Doesn't make a very good employee, also doesn't make a good recovering addict.
What do you think? I'm glad we can talk about this because it's such a touchy subject! Honestly I haven't gotten this in depth about this subject with any other addicts in person. I'm grateful to have you - you're helping me learn. Plus it's fun to evade my paperwork here in the office! Ha, ha - speaking of bad employees...
Thanks,
Ginger
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Re: Sponsorship
Fri, August 19, 2005 - 8:46 PMOh yes this is fun and I hope Chris and some others hop in.....
Let me start by apologizing. I reread your post and I guess I didn't read it thoroughly. You have a dually on lithium, that sounds BP, and the other I don't know if you were real clear on. Sleep meds and some others, and then there is Lonny w/ the morphine patch? That still blows me away. I guess I am still fascinated as to why she is interested in NA. Sounds like a great cover unless she is cancer, and terminal and then I totally understand. And then say still why NA? Just me I suppose. There are pain mgmt programs for people w/ chronic pain. But they usually don't like them. Too much work. And effort and no benefit.
Ok, onto the SSRI's as you call them. These are the antidepressants. They aren't psychotropics. They have been around since about 1987, w/ Prozac and lexapro leading the pack. I know I was one of the first poster kids. Yes they have been over prescribed, yes there were deaths attributed to Prozac, and yes children should not be on these unless absolutely necessary and only for very short periods of time. The chemical breakdown is different than w/ adults thus they don't do the same job on serration levels in the brain often causing more severe depressions.
There are dozens of SSRI's on the market; in fact most of the old tricylics aren't used much anymore though there has been a recent reemergence of some of them for use in bi-poplars, Elavil, being one. It’s been around forever.
Antidepressants split up to deal w/ different disorders. OCD folks often get Zoloft, major depression, Prozac, remeron, serrazone, etc. It goes on and on.
Then there are the newer antidepressants NNRI's, which the biggie is Wellbutrin. That is what I am on. This has the least side effects. But if you are bi-polar, you cannot just take anti depressants. You must also be on Mood Stabilizers. This is where the psychotropics come in. this is where it gets complicated. This is where the rubber meets the road. This is the same for schizophrenics also.
This is when the sponsor says whoa, this person is not just on an antidepressant cause they were depressed coming off heroin or alcohol. They weren't prescribed sleeping aids cause they couldn't get their sleep pattern back after 5 yrs. of endless partying till dawn and now need to get some REM back. No, these are peopling whom after a period of clean time, still have some serious mood or thought disorders that are keeping them from healing. And just like you said ginger about NA's holistic approach, AA is also about that. But it's DRA that is really about that the most. We are very much dedicated to the holistic approach.
Like Lonny, the morphine addict? It wouldn’t be a bad idea for her to be in physical therapy and mental health treatment. Why? To deal w/ her pain mgmnt issues. Her life must be hell. And you know as well as I do that morphine patch isn't doing her any good anymore. She has chronic pain; she needs to learn to deal with it. Unless she's dying. And again, I apologize, I suppose she can do whatever she wants, but then I question the way the group handles it. I’d find it hard if I were a recovering opiate addict.
Your uncle 10 yrs. on Prozac? Not unheard of at all. Especially if it helps him. It is not addictive medication. I will be on meds the rest of my life. It’s like being diabetic. My brain chemistry is dopamine depleted. I was bi-polar and ADD as a child.
In my opinion, it is because I am just an indigo star child with 4 houses in Aquarius. But see, society says this and that and well...I started doing drugs early in life and blah...so, now...I am rewired...
And w/out the medications I will do some weird shit. So, I have a 12 yr. old. She has ADD. I don’t medicate her. She is an indigo child. I have her in private school. I work with her. Times have changed. I have changed. I am educated in the field I am sick in. I help others in this field. I advocate. I make sure that people don’t have to go thru what I did as a bipolar in the courts to be heard regarding relapses and medications.
I don't sponsor ginger. My gifts lie in other arenas. I am a counselor by training, I wouldn't make a good AA sponsor, as my issues are DRA. I just stick to AA for the fellowship and 12-step program. It works. It’s all the same.
I hope this wasn't too long or boring.
A great website is crazymeds.org. they are funny, down to earth and informative.
Love Pam -
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Re: Sponsorship
Sat, August 20, 2005 - 1:18 PMHi Pam. Darn, so you aren't going to comment on how we handled my sponsee taking an extra prescription sleepting pill! Come on, Pam! Ha ha, I understand. If you don't sponsor it's hard to weigh in.
I'm going to tell you a little more about Lonny just to further illustrate the case. She isn't all that rare, unfortunately. She actually DID have cancer when I first met her! That was in 2003. Her hair had fallen out, she was grossly overweight. It was breast cancer. They took a breast and she recovered. Then, later, the thing with the knee infection and the knee surgeries which kept her on pain meds. When she had cancer she admitted to gobbling up extra pain pills, considered it a relapse, and admitted it in a meeting. She is attracted to NA because, I assume, she has been a drug addict for a long time and doesn't like it, plus she enjoys the attention and fellowship.
She is married to a co-dependent man who leads the local NarAnon group. But that doesn't stop him from taking care of her. Both in their late 40's, no kids, she has worked on and off doing home makeup sales but I think she kind of dropped the ball on that. The one thing I really don't get is that she drives. I don't know how she can drive a car without wrecking it. She drives a giant boat of an old car, too.
She makes me, and other in NA, uncomfortable, for certain. She told us last week that her doctor told her it's time for her to kick her pain meds and she asked us for our support. We'll see.
My experience in my five years of NA is that the addicts who seem to come in and out, in and out the most are prescription drug addicts. They really seem to have the hardest time drawing the line and the hardest time staying clean.
You made some good points about the SSRI's, etc. I didn't know SSRI's are NOT psychotropics. I don't know the difference. I am surprised that you said it's OK for someone to be on Prozac for ten years. My understanding with most of these drugs is that the tolerance builds up very quickly and you need a higher dosage every few months. I did have a therapist in California who was a friend tell me that originally these drugs were meant to help someone get through a period of time, not forever. When you say they are not addictive, I guess maybe you don't get a "buzz" from taking them. But they definately cause dependence. I've had two different people in my life on Zoloft - both of them tried to wean off and found it impossible, due to the physical and mental consequences. In my opinion, that's dependence. I understand it's very hard to get off Paxil too. This is one of my biggest reasons for refusing them.
I commend you for not medicating your daughter. It seems like such a risk to medicate a child. My husband was diagnosed as ADHD as a child and was medicated from age 12 to age 17, and is resentful and regretful about it. He says he spent many sleepless nights as a child and he probably didn't get a chance to develop like he would have without chemicals in his system. I'm a little older than my husband. When I was a child, we didn't have labels like ADD or ADHD yet. Nobody in my grade school was medicated. Now the drug manufacturers have found out just how lucrative this is, combined with most homes having both parents working, and therefore spending a great deal less time with their children than parents did in the 1970s when I was growing up.
I didn't understand this comment you made: "I make sure that people don’t have to go thru what I did as a bipolar in the courts to be heard regarding relapses and medications. " Also, what is DRA again? I've never heard of it. I agree that Lonny should be in some kind of pain management group, I have never thought of this, and she really likes me, so I feel comfortable mentioning it to her. Thanks for pointing this out, she may actually be one of the willing ones.
Thanks again, Pam, I really do appreciate the discussion. Even though I might not be quite a follower of astrology! Hey, guess which sign I am!
Ginger -
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Re: Sponsorship
Fri, August 26, 2005 - 12:55 AMHi ginger-well, let’s see … I am not very good at guessing signs. But if I were to just randomly go for it, I am thinking most air signs are interested in astrology so you probably are not. You have a lot of earth temperament but water sensitivity. So, i am willing to go and say Virgo or cancer,
Anyway you’ll have to let me know and hey if you want a chart reading give me your time of birth, day, place and year and i will do a short read for you. Yu might be surprised.
Ok girlfriend down to business on our secret tribe. You do know there are some others out there. NA and tomato basil soup for you. Wacky tribes for recovering folks also.
I grew up prior to ADD labeling also. Besides it was just the hyper boys that were labeled later anyway. Didn’t matter that I switched college 3 times, changed majors at least 6 times, was so scatterbrained, I’ve been nicknamed final frontier all my life, on and on. I have also always been bi polar. Up and down mood swings. Bad hormonal swings. So, I self medicated young in life. No excuses, just a little history.
Now the antidepressants like Zoloft and paxil you do need to wean off of, because your body is use to them and can go into shock or seizures or withdrawals if you abruptly stop. I suppose that’s tolerance, but it’s more tritating. Most meds you should do that with anyway. Gives your body time to readjust.
Lonny is a player in my INHO. She has no motivation and is using NA as a social club. That has got to piss off people seriously trying to recover. It would not be tolerated out here and we are a losey goose area. Pain mgmt. Programs are plentiful but my guess is she will not make it. Just a gut. W/ her husband head a naranon well sounds to me they are the local sobriety celebs and every town has them.
DRA stands for Dual Recovery Anonymous, people that suffer from a chemical dependency and a mental health disorder. That is what 3Duniverse tribe is. Some of us are on meds that NA, CA any A would prefer to not hear about, and that program is the perfect forum to discuss meds and sobriety. It is a rapidly growing 12-step program. The only drawback is that it still is stigmatized and many folks would rather do their12 step programs in traditional mtgs like NA or AA and discuss their mental health issues w/ a therapist and their shrink. Basically that is what I do. Here in Ojai are AA is so loose we don’t even need NA really. We talk freely about anything. But you go down the mountain to Ventura or Oxnard and some of their mtgs. Are hardcore AA mainliners? You speak nada but AA. So it varies from mtg. to mtg.
And finally to address your first hook, I could not resist. So your sponsee took an extra pill and you ‘all spanked her, huh? You yourself said she admitted it, she couldn’t sleep. Had a good reason and didn’t feel the need to change that hard earned birthdate. Let it be.
Ginger just cause I don’t sponsor doesn’t mean I don’t understand. Remember i was in this field for years. Maybe it is because I see the relapse rates and so much of it I wait and see before I go off 12 stepping to newcomers.
You are right. There are a lot of prescription meds being abused. Especially now with the meth and coke folks coming off the shit and they are all whacked out. The Doc’s are trying to keep them calm through the first few months so they don’t go postal. Hell it’s the same in AA.
My view is more tempered. As long as people aren’t doing the level of self-destruction they were doing to themselves before and are making a determined effort to work a program, to me that’s doing the gig. If people need short term medical help along their journey, that’s not for me to judge or for that matter to even know about. Probably best left between the doc and sponsee.
If the sponsee is going to meetings workings the steps, taking on commitments, being of service, being one of us in the fellowship, I think that is awesome. I honestly don’t believe people using will do those things if they are using. I have watched many come and go. Mostly go. When they are actively using, they aren’t hanging out faking it to long. We are too boring. Smiles sweetie,
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Re: Sponsorship
Sat, August 27, 2005 - 12:48 PMHey Gypsy! Good to hear back from you. Hey where is Ojai? I've never even heard of it. I saw on your profile you are in Los Angeles CA.
I'm a Pisces! I think I was born in the morning but I really don't know. My birth date is 3.19.1971. I was born in Denver Colorado. I see on your profile you went to school there - must have been one of those six or seven different majors you chose! All my family still lives in Colorado. I get out there once or twice a year. It's a 12 hour drive from where I live in St. Louis.
Yes, people like Lonny are difficult to be around. She and her husband aren't really a "star" couple in NA. She is way to wacked out. I heard she's been coming around over five years. Right now she claims she has nine months clean, but in my view she doesn't even have one day. She says nine months is the most time she's ever gotten. Yeah right. Naranon isn't strong at all here, in fact there are only like two meetings a week. It's nearly non-existent. Usually people who go are family members of addicts going to an NA meeting in the same facility on the same night. Most people don't seem to take Lonny seriously. Since she joined our home group, I'm worried about when she claims to have "one year." We have a tradition that home group members share at the meeting when they celebrate an annual anniversary - meaning they tell their story and share their experience, strength and hope. In my opinion we cannot let her do that. It may not even come up, if she doesn't mention it.
It sounds like the Dual Recovery Anon program would be really helpful to people who are on meds. A friend of mine works at a pharmacy and she said Paxil is a controlled addictive substance. I think when these drugs are controlled by the law it's usually because they're addictive, but I really don't know anything about that. I like what you said, if the doctor prescribed it and knows you're an addict, and your life isn't unmanageable because of it, it probably wouldn't interfere with recovery. That seems like a good way to think of it.
I'll look forward to your next post -
Ginger -
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Re: Sponsorship
Tue, September 6, 2005 - 2:59 PMSpeaking of sponsorship, I have been sober for two and a half years and have had numerous people ask me to be their sponsor, but my sponsor says that I still aint ready.
I go on twelth-step calls and jail meetings,but I really think that I am ready to be a sponsor. -
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Re: Sponsorship
Tue, September 27, 2005 - 3:07 PMhi brock, hi ginger and the rest of the gang!
we have lively discussions in here about sponsorship don't we ginger?
I don't sponsor, I suppose I could with dual diagnosis folks, ginger is the one with clean time who sponsors. why does your sponsor think you should wait Brock and I would love to hear ginger's take on it. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Sponsorship
Thu, November 3, 2005 - 2:29 PMMy sponsor wanted me to work Steps 6 and 7 before I started sponsoring others. I'm not sure why your sponsor thinks you aren't ready, Brock. Have you asked him why? Knowing why he thinks you aren't ready to sponsor would most certainly help you grow. -
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Re: Sponsorship
Thu, November 3, 2005 - 2:42 PMginger! you're back sisterfriend....and guess what? i am sponsoring a woman. she is in AA but her issues paralled mine, my sponsor said , do it..so i am. but, it is not quite to the format, as she has so many other things going on.
i've started her w/ a meeting a day, checkin a day and take care of business, (she recently was incarcerated).
i don't know why someone has to have worked all the steps prior to sponsorship. if we can help each other and it's a fit, we may be saving someone from going out. sponsors are hard to find.
good to see you posting!! -
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Re: Sponsorship
Fri, November 11, 2005 - 8:02 AMHey there again Gypsy. Well, well, well. So you have a sponsee. As far as you guys having similar issues, I think it's neat. You'll be able to speak to those issues because of your experience.
NA unleashed a new piece of literature earlier this year - it's a book on sponsorship. It's NA approved literature. I have it. There is some stuff in there I don't agree with - it really gives a lot of different perspectives on sponsorship.
My husband got clean in a treatment program for young people (age 12 - 25). He was brought up with the mentality that someone who has 30 days can help someone new get 30 days. He is not big on needing to have worked a certain amount of steps to sponsor. I guess it all depends on the circumstances.
By the by, that woman in my home group I was always complaining about left and got a different home group. Things came to a head a couple of months ago when she kept asking me to sponsor her, and pushing me for a reason why I wouldn't. Finally I had to tell her because I don't feel she's clean and I don't feel qualified to be a guide to her with all the medication and pain issues she has. I pointed out that she nods off in the meeting and that I don't see how she can safely drive a car. Turns out she's on methadone in addition to whatever other meds she is on. I asked her if she thought she should check in someplace to kick all that and she said, no, that her doc is "weaning" her. The last home group meeting she attended with us, she spoke out of turn inappropriately, took a cell phone call as the meeting was starting, and nodded out entirely during the second half of the meeting. Oh, well. I guess she will find her way. -
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Re: Sponsorship
Mon, November 14, 2005 - 9:13 AMhello sisters. I just want to say again that I am not a recovering addict. But I am so very proud of you all and wish you all the best. All my love a support go out to you!!
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